9 mm Gold Dot vs. Piston in a 427 V8 - which Pushes Harder?

When I see the rating for a bullet like a 9 mm Gold Dot
https://www.luckygunner.com/9mm-147-grain-jhp-speer-gold-dot-le-50-rounds

“320 Foot Pounds”

well, that means it does about as much work as someone lifting 640 pounds, half a foot.

And I can’t help but wonder - how does that compare to the piston on a car engine when the gasoline ignites/ explodes ?

I was hoping that some of the forum members might be knowledgeable about Cars.

Of course, there is a Method to this Madness.

I’m not just asking random questions about cars, on a gun website, for fun. :slight_smile:

I am interested in using Nitroglycerine and/or Nitrocellulose - Smokeless Powder in other words - to power an Internal combustion engine.

From working in Silicon Valley - I started in the Wireless industry in 1980 - I know that you have to plan realistically about Design Iterations.

Having Gasoline in a tank is one thing. Having a Gas Tank full of Nitroglycerine and/or Nitrocellulose - well that sounds like the “Bang Bang” part of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang (old movie).

If I was working in a corporation with an R&D schedule, to deal with the safety issue, I would be packaging the fuel in 9 mm brass. And “firing” the hot gas when the primer gets struck by the firing pin, into the cylinder, to push the piston. (My firearms background is more rifles & semi-auto’s, so if it has a striker instead of a firing pin, that works too.)

Why 9 mm brass ? Because there’s so much of it. I collect brass and have a little 38 Special, a lot of 45 ACP, hundreds of S&W 40 … and about a 100 pounds of 9 mm brass.

So basically the car engine would be mostly automobile, with a little bit of semi-auto.

If it were done right, it would be very cool. It would have a Cool Sound.

Eventually the novelty of a fuel tank with 1000 rounds of 9 mm blanks, and a storage area for all the empties, and the fact that it can only go 20 miles on those 1000 rounds … well yes eventually there would be a meeting in the engineering department where people would say, “We have to find a better way”.

But the way it works in design is, you have to build the first one before you can build the second one. The first one gives you something to criticize.

The main thing is, it has to be Safe, and Useful. It’s TBD what the mileage would be.

I trust that Smokeless Powder is just as economical in the long run as Gasoline, so the trick is learning to store it safely, when used as an Automotive Fuel.

Well, I know one way to store it safely. Magazines of 9 mm blanks. Big Magazines.

It does sound kind of Mad Magazine-ish, I admit.

So the question is - what force does a car engine push on the piston with, when the gas explodes in the piston ?

Is it about 640 pounds ? Does it push the piston about 6 inches ?

If so, it just did 320 foot pounds worth of work - same as a Speer Gold Dot 9 mm.

:no_mouth:

no, I don’t have anything… it just… no

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What @Spider1’s response comes out to:

I’ll do my car at 60MPH at around 1500 RPM, its a 4 cylinder Nissan Altima, gets about 39MPG highway, so it costs $2.69 to go 39 miles/39 min, $.07 to go a mile, or $.00001 per combustion.

Math
$2.69/39min=$.068/min
$.068/1500rpm=$.000046/rotation
$.000046/4 cylinders=$.00001 per cumbustion

1 ft/lb=1.36 joules, a gallon of gas produces 100,000,000 joules, at 39mpg at 60 mph it takes 2,564,102 joules/1,891,184 ft/lbs to move a mile. At 340320ft/lbs per round you would need 5,910 rounds to equal the energy to travel a mile, or 230,490 rounds to equal a gallon of gas.

Math
100mil joules/39miles=2,564,102 joules or 1,891,184 ft/lbs per mile
1,891,184 ft/lb /320ft/lb per round= 5910 rounds per mile
5910x39=230,490 rounds per gallon

If you reverse the math you can find out how much energy each combustion produces. With 100mil joules burning in 39min, with 1500rpm and 4 cylinders, each combustion produces 427 joules/315 ft/lbs of energy. To answer your question on what pushes harder A speer 147gr 9mm round only performs 1.5% better than the amount of gasoline it takes to move a piston in my car.

Math
100mil joules/39=2,564,102 joules or 1,891,184 ft/lbs per min
1,891,184 ft/lbs per min/1500rpm=1260 ft/lb per rotation
1260 ft/lb per rotation/4 cylinders= 315 ft/lbs per combustion

9mm rounds use about 4 grains of powder and there are 7000 grains in a pound, so 1750 rounds worth of powder per pound. A pound of powder goes for ~$27 on the low end.

If 1750 rounds costs $27, 230,490 rounds worth of powder would cost $3564 for 132lbs. It would cost me over $3500 to use gunpowder instead of a gallon gas

Math
230490rds/1750 rds per lb=132lbs
132lbs x $27= $3564

With an 18 gallon tank it would cost me almost $65k to travel just as far and would weigh 2380lbs instead of 113lbs for a full tank.

Personally I’m at a loss for words on how you would think its feasible, even if powder didn’t cost over 1300% more than gasoline, the amount of buildup over 200k rounds would create in the engine would seize it up immediately.

This is all I really have to say: May God Have Mercy On Your Soul - Billy Madison - YouTube

edited for rounding and initially using 340ft/lbs instead of 320ft/lbs

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I love that this math exists.

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not to mention that that kind off energy doesn’t come from blanks so a car would have to be driving down the road shooting live ammo as it went? I gotta say, that would be fricken hilarious! :rofl:

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I’d just hate to load over 4 million rounds to refill my mags/tank.

yeah, just think how much your thumb would hurt after that!

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Not to mention I would need to reload 4million rounds every week. CCI makes 4 million rounds of .22 a day, the equipment and space needed would be ridiculous.

Gasoline propelled ammunition :man_shrugging:

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LMAO! Now there’s an idea!

Well here’s a picture of 427 V8 while I chew on all this !

Thanks for all the comments and calculations.

I would love to find pre-existing tables of Calorimetric values for different fuels,

How much energy you get when you burn a small test amount.

320 foot pounds for a 9 mm 147 gn.
From Hodgdon Reloading, 3.6 grains of Titegroup, 0.23 grams.

When the gas is burning/ exploding on one of those cylinders in the picture, how many pounds does it push against the piston head with ?

That makes it easier to calculate how much energy is actually going on.

I just did the math for a 4 cylinder, it 315 ft/lbs. Considering an 8 cylinder uses more gas, it would also use more gun powder. Just do the same math with different MPG and number of cylinders and you can find out how much it would cost. There is no situation where gunpowder will be anywhere near the price of gas to run a car, let alone loaded ammunition

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