PSA is great…unique in this industry, and don’t find a company that does what it does in many fields. The innovation is in the quality/variety/price ratio. And one of the few I’ll tolerate multiple sale emails from! I think they get classified as “lower tier” based on pricing.
A lot of good points all the way around. Lots of reasons to spend more—QC, handguard attachment method, controls, feel, unique features, excess cash, etc. but not necessarily better performance. It’s like cars…they’ll all get you to work (if they’re running!).
Watch “small arms solutions” on youtube. That guy is an ex-engineer for Colt for their AR15/M16 program. Watch all the videos about PSA. I think you’ll give yourself a hug for being right. As far the 1911 I’ve shot a Colt eagle some-crap a $2000 gun. I wasn’t impressed. Give me a Glock 10mm instead any day.
On one hand, I like some of what that small arms guy has to say. On the other - he hates the M14 and the Mini-14, and that’s slander I just won’t stand for.
i may check out what that YouTube guy has to say. thanks for sharing the info.
i was thinking about this high vs low quality ar15 thread because i saw PSA launch a Vietnam style camo pattern on the Sabre ar15 builder kit of upper, lower, and handguard.
I Had believed that the launch of Sabre was mostly a psa rifle set with all the goody goody parts from other manufacturers that most guys would want to put on their rifle, or at least start with as upgrades on their rifle. This meant all already built of course … But now I’m looking at this kit, and I’m thinking, ok, how is this different from a PSA PA-15 builder kit of the same, upper, lower, and handguard. well, to me, it’s really not different at all, except I’m damn sure that its gonna cost more than the standard old psa set. Why would it ? they’re identical parts right? other than things like the ceracoate/duracoate on the parts, what else can they do different to make purchasing the Sabre builders kit worth it to the average customer? Well you’d have to hand fit each part before you package the kits together to ensure you have the tightest fit you can get… they’d have to have some form of measurement to judge this by, to put it apart from the standard parts kit…
we all know that just because the lower can be made on the same machine, out of the same metals, there can be differences in the sizing of the metals just by the machines, which is why we have variable tolerances between parts… that undoubtedly we’d have to have someone check on the sabre line to ensure for the tightest available to be a sabre parts kit where as the PSA kit wouldn’t have to go through such stringent testing to make it a PSA kit as long as it was still within mil-spec.
i almost think that by having the builder kits separate to have anybody buy, kind of ruins the whole idea of folks spending more money on the Sabre lineup. I mean besides the tolerances and maybe colors cerakoated/duracoated what is my reason to buy the Sabre upper lower, and handguard over the PSA standard upper, lower, and handguard ? in my opinion it kind of makes it moot, cause i can use all the identical same internals they use in the Sabre lineup bought independently on the standard PSA upper, lower, and handguard. I almost think they should not sell those things separately for Sabre, making it the only way to have a Sabre, is by buying it built from PSA. Am i off base on this? or is this something that doesn’t matter?
The Sabre has ambi controls, doesn’t it? That could be one reason.
But yeah for the most part, to me, a lower is a lower. Same with a handguard. Doesn’t matter. Uppers, as I said earlier, only the BCG and the barrel are a big deal (and the difference between a “normal” one and a “premium” one in the same specs/dimensions isn’t as big as some people make it out to be.)
Not ARs, but…as an example of that, I have a buddy that spent quite a bit of money for a Volquartsen bull barrel for his 10/22. More than the rifle cost. I spent about a third what he did for a Shaw barrel of equal length and profile…they look and perform equally.
I’m not saying there’s NEVER any reason to pay a premium for certain things. Maybe there is, especially if your use case/situation/context is different from mine. I’m no expert, all I’m saying is, in my years with firearms, I’ve noticed this is one hobby where you hit a point of diminishing returns for your money REAL quick, but people will never admit it because nobody wants to say “hey, I spent $5k for this rig but I really could’ve gotten the same thing for about $1,500.”
I recently built a PA-15 from an assembled upper, stripped lower and lower parts kits. I asked my son, who is a Colt-certified M16/AR15 armorer, to inspect my finished build. He said it was properly built overall. While I may have gotten lucky, he said the fit between the upper and lower was as precise as he had seen on any AR. While he has some pricey ARs, his go-to gun is a Spikes L.E. that costs a third as much as his LWRC IC-SPR.
How well a gun works is more important than how much it costs.
------^^^^ This… So So So dang much This ---------^^^^
i think you hit it on the head a lot, especially when you’re talking about someone having bought say a psa rifle versus say a Larue or a DD. folks get real defensive, when they overspend for something that performs just as well as something that cost less. No one wants to be embarrassed by overspending.
agreed… but i think for the argument here we’re all assuming that the low quality ar’s and the high quality ar’s both function as intended .
I would be curious to put that PA15 your built up agianst his spikes and see how well it held out against it.
There is a difference between billet and forged. Billet is always sold as an upper and lower mated together for tightest of tolerances. If you take your forged AR and move the upper and lower side to side there is a tiny bit of play. At long range that movement could make a difference.
I had a Spikes Crusader and one of their L.E. In my testing for best accuracy I had up to 17 types of 5.56/.223 from different ammo companies with various weights from 55 grain to 75 grain. My PSA was more accurate. This particular test I’m telling you about was between my Crusader a $1500 rifle compared to a $329 blem PSA rifle with a nitrite barrel. I had 12 different rounds to work with and did 5 shot groups. Guys I was wanting my Crusader to perform the best… but 8 rounds went to the PSA and 4 went to the Crusader. It was disappointing. I No longer have any of Spikes rifles (thanks to the covid gun scare I was able to get rid of a lot of my “high end” stuff and get most of my money back as this was not the only testing I did with PSA and other “high end” companies From .308, 7.62x39, 300 blackout, 5.56/.223. PSA was more accurate). Spikes Tactical rifles are nice guns and made well but not worth the price.
Maybe I can talk my son into a shoot-off between our guns. I know he is a better rifleman than I ever was, but it would be interesting to compare how both of the guns perform for each of us.
Yes there is a lot of differences between forged and Billet. But for this discussion we’re only talking about the sabre platform. that may be correct for the Sabre line currently, however in the past billet lowers and uppers have been sold separately from each other. This is not only correct for PSA but also for other manufacturers. Billet is manufactured out of a single block of aluminum and machined to extremely small tolerances. which is why the upper and lowers are able to mate so close together to have almost no negative tolerances. Forged is not. that said, you can be lucky and find a forged upper and a forged lower to mate closely together to almost be as good as a billet couple. I do agree that the less tolerances that are out of spec we get a better shooting, more accurate set / gun.
thats awesome your psa was more accurate. i’ve had both spikes and psa, but never bothered to run an accuracy competition between them. I have to agree with you that Spikes are nice, but also not worth the price… especially since i know where some of their parts come from.
I just did a little more research on billet and did see they do get sold separately from each other. Up to this point when ever I had looked at them it was always a set, so my assumption was as such.
Spikes is probably going to be a chrome lined barrel. Right off the bat it will be handicapped. The PSA will likely have a nitrite barrel. Which will offer better accuracy across a wider range of ammo brands and bullet weights. The reason for my test was because if crap goes south and I can’t find the ammo my gun likes. What gun is going to give me my best chance for accuracy from whatever ammo I can get? It was PSAs barrels that showed me the answer to my question. And that was in multiple caliber testing that I did from .308, 5.56/223, 300 blackout, and 7.62x39. PSA was more accurate, it didn’t matter the caliber . Have fun if you do the test and please post the results.
yea, no problem man. y ou know what they say about assumptions…
glad you were able to find it your self that way though. it shows that just one guys word isnt enough to go on but when you actually find it from other sources it makes that more solid of a reply
As for Spikes. I know they have gotten the CHF before from FN exclusively. I do not know if that is the current condition still, but in the past it was. to my knowledge spikes does not have machinery to build or manufacture i should say their own barrels, therefore must outsource someone else to do so, same with any of their other small parts… now that is again, kinda old information. that i’m recalling, but i dont know if spikes has changed that. For a while there, i knew of the very companies that were producing parts for them, and many people would be very surprised who was I am like you though Sinister-c. I want barrels and parts that work with any caliber, any type of casing/ grain/ etc. so that i can run any form of ammo i may find on my various wanderings… battlefield pickups are not going to be the exact brand grain, etc, that my super finicky gun would like, so i want a gun that is non discriminative to whatever i feed it!
Exactly, and to my knowledge spikes still doesn’t make anything. They do have design concepts and get awarded patents but even those someone else ends up making for them. As far as FN goes from my limited experience and what I’ve seen on YouTube I’m not impressed.
well im a little bit biased, I’ve been to the fn factory an dtaken the tours and seen the presentations on the differences in the steels, not that i understood most of it, but i do respect and am impressed with their machine gun steel. they m ake great firearms too. but in all honesty i am a fan boy too because of the fact they’re manufacturing right here in SC, just like PSA is a SC company., and their guns now say Columbia, SC on them. The AR parts though, I’d rather go with PSA for all of them with maybe one exception being the Machine Gun Steel barrels. That said, I truly dont need that machine gun steel barrels in my guns, because i’ll never shoot enough thru them to wear out my barrels anyways, so its a moot point… so why waste the extra $$$ on it when i could go PSA nitride, have more accuracy and more money in my wallett? well the only real reason i can think of is for some reason folks love the FN CHF stuff when you go to sell your stuff. Thats the only real reason i can think of. SO yea, i’ll keep with my PSA Nitrided barrels, and i’ll keep being a super psa fanboy… with a ton of respect for both companies. Cause I do buy both.
I am like you though Sinister-c. I want barrels and parts that work with any caliber, any type of casing/ grain/ etc. so that i can run any form of ammo i may find on my various wanderings… battlefield pickups are not going to be the exact brand grain, etc, that my super finicky gun would like, so i want a gun that is non discriminative to whatever i feed it!
