Trying to figure out where we are along the timeline of rise and fall of institutions, Greece, Rome, Hitler, whatever? Feels to me like we’re starting to crumble from within.
This subject has been on my mind a good bit over the last few years. Looking at the 4 years of Biden and Harris it is kinda hard not to reflect back on history since history has a way of repeating itself. I have done some reading on the subject and here are some things that I found interesting in comparing two large past civilizations to America today.
Comparing the modern day America to the “fall” of Rome and Ancient Greece is a classic historical exercise. Most scholars today focus less on a sudden “crash” and more on the decay of institutions and internal polarization.
Here are a few historical parallels to compare to the current state of America.
- The Roman Republic: The Most Common Parallel.
Historians usually compare modern America to the Late Roman Republic (roughly 133–27 BCE) rather than the “Fall of Rome” (476 CE). This was the period before Julius Caesar, when the system was still a Republic but was beginning to break.
Roman Parallel- Modern American Concern
(Political Polarization)
Rome- Conflict between the Optimates (conservatives) and Populares (populists) led to legislative gridlock.
America- Deep partisan divide and the breakdown of “norms” in Congress and political parties.
(Wealth Inequality)
Rome- Small farms were replaced by massive estates (latifundia) owned by the elite, creating a permanent underclass.
America- Growing gap between the ultra-wealthy/corporations and the working class.
(Erosion of Norms)
Rome- Politicians began using “emergency powers” and ignoring unwritten rules to defeat rivals.
America- Use of executive orders, filibusters, and legal battles to bypass traditional legislation.
(Militarism/Empire)
Rome- Rome became so large that its military became more loyal to individual generals than to the state.
(The Key Differences between Rome & America)
In Rome, political disputes eventually turned into literal street fighting and private armies.
In America, the military is supposed to be strictly apolitical, and the “battles” are largely fought in courts and the media. There have been a few high ranking military officers under Biden that attempted to politicize our military. Thank God, Trump / Hegseth has largely turned that around and fired many of those officers who attempted to politicize our military.
- Ancient Greece: The “Tyranny of the Mob”
The comparison to Greece usually centers on:
(Athenian Democracy) and its eventual decline during the Peloponnesian War.
Athenian Democracy defined- Athenian democracy was a direct democratic system in ancient Athens (5th-4th centuries BCE) where eligible male citizens directly participated in governing through assemblies and courts.
(Demagoguery) Figures like Alcibiades rose to power by telling the public exactly what they wanted to hear, regardless of the consequences. Critics of modern politics often point to “populism” as a similar echo.
Demagoguery defined- political activity or practices that seek support by appealing to the desires and prejudices of ordinary people rather than by using rational argument.
(The Thucydides Trap) This is a famous theory that when a rising power (like Sparta then, or China now) threatens a ruling power (like Athens then, or the US now), war is the most likely outcome.
(Social Cohesion) Greek city-states often collapsed because they could not find common ground, leading to stasis-(civil strife). Many observers see America’s current “culture wars” as a modern form of stasis.
3) Why the Comparisons Might Fail
While the parallels are similar there are big differences that suggest the US may not “destined” to follow their path:
(Technology & Communication) The speed of information today has no historical precedent. It can accelerate collapse (misinformation), but it also allows for rapid self-correction and transparency.
(The Middle Class) Rome and Greece lacked a robust, educated middle class for most of their history. The existence of a broad tax-paying base in the US provides a stability those ancient empires never had.
(The Constitution) Unlike Rome, which relied heavily on “unwritten” customs (mos maiorum), the US has a rigid, written legal framework and an independent judiciary.
(Economy) Ancient economies were based on conquest and slavery. The modern US economy is based on innovation, technology, and global trade—a much more dynamic (if volatile) system.
I would summarize to say that If you look at history as a cycle, America looks like it’s in a “Late Republic” phase—wealthy and powerful, but struggling with it’s internal identity and the weight of its own bureaucracy. However, history isn’t a straight line. Many empires (including Rome itself) faced “collapses” only to reinvent themselves and last for centuries more.
USA is like Rome before the conflagration with smoke showing on sides A B C and D.
The lunatics are openly demanding attacks on law enforcement. Laws are being violated with no punishment. Anti USA gangs and terrorists allowed to get away with it
I don’t see this ending well.
@rufus,
most civilizations/nations dont last more than around 200-250 years historically… when you get right down to it.. it hink even the ancient roman empire really lasted only like 230 some odd years. and they all collapse from the rot from the inside. i truly think it is because we have made it too good over time for the majority of people. whats the old saying? “Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times”, the Greatest generation i beleive was the result of hard times creating strong good men… but alas their children and subsequent generations had it much easier than them and previous generations before them, therefore we’re in the current phase of being ruled by weak men, who’ve obviously created many hard times that are up on the horizon now, and we’re about to get screwed by them… The quote was something like that anyways, and yall get the point.. but damn.. we’re close i think everyone feels it.. for years now i’ve felt like something is happening soon, be it a civil war moreso than anything else, but no now i fear what ive been feeling has been precursors to that.. but on a much much larger scale.. we have war in all parts of the globe, and even though trump ran on being peaceful, and tried and did succeed in making peace for many countries, he’s in the middle of doing some sort of new American empire it almost feels like.. Taking over Venezula attacking, wanting to annex Iceland, maybe invading the rest of the central america / south american problematic states… idk.. its getting strange.. what exactly is trump thinking? I know he’s playing a game of chess like 4th dimensional chess on Star Trek, and i can definately see the tactical significanse of Iceland though. sooo… idk.. the hammer is getting ready to drop i fear. i truly do…
@1911 ,
GREG!!!
Good to see you!!! you’re right about looking back on the 4 years of the last presidency almost forcing you to want to look back at it and examine it for all the flaws because it was so weak the damage that was done by that administration internationally and nationally im afraid is irreparable at this time. You’re very correct about history repeating itself
the erosion of norms, and the use of Emergency powers just jumps out to me as far back as i was really started paying attention to politics more seriously during the Obama administration and how he began the rule of his presidency by Executive Orders instead of using Congress and the senate … thus essentially getting rid of the checks and balances of the republic and beginning the shift over to the empire… Dont forget also the erosion of non tampered voting machines tooo… the 2020 election was proven to be tampered with the georgia results. if they’d of came forward with the results from GA the next day like they should have Trump would have been president for a direct second term then.. without having the crazy effects of autopen biden and Kackles Kamala.
I dont see the military becoming so large that itll be more loyal to the individual generals, but i do see the military personell picking sides when eits internally tod to fight against its own. FOr instance, you try to activate the SC State guard to fight against the sc state national guard, and the National guard says hell no those are my brothers, we defend SC now forever, not the republic of USA, just the Palmetto State. i can see that more than anything… Protect the home you have basically for reals. lol
I can see the street fighting / not sure about the private armies.. maybe body guard fights, but not much other it than that… at least for right now.. things would have to get a LOT worse yet before that happened i think. . … I agree the military is supposed to be strictly a–political, but lets face it if we’ve reached this point in the scenario then we’re already way way off the written agenda. and somethings way way wrong. The Media is a big problem as it is now. In the future i cannot see the media doing anything else but becoming an even bigger issue than it already is with all that crap that it flings already. Heck i believe that the media is probably one of the largest issues we have in america now as far as feeding dissent amongst everyone now a days.
I’d love to finish replying and discussing but its almost 2 am and i got to go get some sleep.. I am hoping to work on my car some tomorrow and i cannot do that without sleep, and I’ve already told the wife about 4 hours ago i wouldnt be long. I should have been in bed 2 hours ago as it is. I’ll try to get this finished up in the morning… before i go work on the car. either way… great seeing you post again man!! welcome back!
Each of them dies separately and differently however one thing always lingers. Never one single thing besides what I see as entitlement = lazy = downfall. That is my science. Maybe even call it complacency but entitlement leads to that.
Being a history buff I was surprised that you hadn’t already posted.
Greg, it never ceases to amaze me the amount of knowledge you have… I couldnt have remembered all this about ancient greece or the other places and thoeries / etc.. if you gave me a month of studying… well done sir. I’d also have to concur that America does appear to e in the Late Republic phase and many others have said this as well. We are wealthy and powerful as a nation, but our identity has been in question for many a year now due to the influx of many immigrants not seeking the american way rather but moving here to change us to be like their homeland. and the weight of our bureaucracy is overwhelming, as is the weight of our own debt, which is actually proof that we’re not really wealthy at all, but in debt to our eyeballs. does this mean we’re further on than we think we are in this cycle? can it be stopped and the course corrected to stop the impending collapse? I dont know… time and history will tell.
and it may not end well.. it may end with the end of the United states and the seperation of them into other countries or worse yet other countries coming down and annexxing the now defunct US states into their own countries… we will not know until things happen… if they happen.. goodness knows I pray they dont.. i pray we can turn it around and make america healthy again.. it wont be a smooth road, but it will be well worth while. its past time to make everything PRO USA. and that will be a good start to righting the ship.
yeah, and in part its why ive often thought we need a good war to make folks realize what they’re fighting for..b ut by a good war i mean a good conventional war.. and i think we’re past the time of those now a days sadly… we do need to cut down on the entitlement a ton and get rid of those that areentitled by having them back to work, doing whatever, as long as its a fair living wage.
its been very busy for me lately, and indept conversations are hard to have without someone starting them… im glad to see this was.. and was happy to see your posting in it.. but you have blown my mind with the amount of knowledge you dropped here! good show sir. 
You are spot on with this. If you look at America post the Biden administration it was so weak and did so much damage can we ever recover from all of that damage? The coverage from our liberal media and the gas lighting of our country by the “liberal propaganda machine” keeps perpetuating that damage. They also seek to dismiss or impede any progress that Trump has been able to accomplish. The liberal elite class such as the liberal billionaires creating and funding so much of the chaos in America today needs to be fully investigated and those found to have funded or been directly involved need to be prosecuted.
This is going to be a long hard road to bring America back from the brink of destruction. If the conservative base in this country doesn’t hold the “Republican Rhinos” accountable and vote them out of office then that just magnifies the difficulty for the rest of the Conservative movement to achieve and real lasting progress.
All of this didn’t come off of the top of my head. A lot of it I took from my reading. I just tried to condense and simplify it as much as I could. AI also helps when you can figure out the right questions to ask to make sure that your info and thoughts are correct.
thanks, and sadly the whole thing just continues to feed itself in a horrendous circle of life, that repeats and repeats and repeats unless someone does something about it. and you’re right about the liberals doing all that and fully investigating and prosecuting them needs to have happened and will happen asap, but if DOGE is any example, im afraid nothing will happen. Elon had DOGE running smooth, and giving the results they found, but nothing got shut down. we still have the bloat, the government agencies that are useless are still there.. the education dept for instance is still in the federal hands and not handed down to the states… its a crying shame probably why Elon and trump had a falling out of some sort, that trump didnt do anything with what elons team was giving them. Da..mn shame.
yes, but 4 years of Trump wont do it. it started out good, but 1 year in , and its starting to stall, and we’re getting into more conflicts instead of fixing more things here.. yeah we’re out of all he said we would be but now we’re controlling Venezuela and trying to own Iceland… w.t.f.. too much issues still and when his 4 are over, it will be IMPERITIVE that the next 4-8 to be won by another republican of the same cut or more conservative too you’re right about the Rhinos too.. .an the biggest one, Lindsie fricking lindsie… has HAS to GO… why hasnt he been voted out yet??? i just dont get it.. we need new younger blood, and we need to get term limits… i cant repeat it enough.
well it may not have came off your top of your head, but you have a hell of a retention man. Maye when i was younger and before chemo i could have done it, but not anymore… i can hardly speak complete sentences now sometimes much less remember important stuff like you did above.. im soo impressed and envious.. as you know, im still trying to get used to the new person i have become, and am becoming every day.. seems like the changes are never over with this dang stuff. AI is awesome at answering questions.. i just hope its answers are correct.